Let's Talk

Mayank Sharma said :

good topic, Vibhu. well, I have to confess that I do face a lot of problems in recognising different notes. and eventually I can, if I have notes to compare. by how big the note is, I can differentiate and tell which it is. I want to know, is there any other way to find out? like brail or something? mostly, I have to take sighted help for that. and recognising coins is a little easier, but the latest development, a 10 rupee coin, is quite similar to a 2 rupee coin. I wonder if people from other countries face the same problem? let's hear from them.

Liesbeth said :

Nice discussion! As you probably know, in most of Europe the Euro was introduced in 2002. Though I did not like to say goodbye to our old guilders, I am quite happy with the new coins and bills. The bills have the amount printed on them in huge letters, which I can still read. They also have different tangible symbols, but like with the Rs. these tend to fade. The coins are really good, all the edges have different reliefs, and they're quite easy to distinguish. It's not something that is easy to change, currency. A lot of lobbying has to be done beforehand when new banknotes and coins are going to be produced, and you're always stuck with the old ones. So for VIP the Euro is a good change, also because we can use it in many different countries around us, instead of having to get used to their currency.

avinash said :

vibhu has flagged a thought-provoking post! notes are very essential to be recognized, otherwise, blind will always be cheated! I know, few visually chalenged friends of mine, have no problem in identifying notes of any value. but majority of us, including me; find it difficult. and I feel, indian coins, are not difficult to be recognised. many of you would agree,we identify notes by measureing one note to another. which takes too much time, and gives nagative immage in public domain. now question is: RBI, which enjoys the authority for publishing notes in India; ever considers this seriously? never. but now time has come, we will have to take it as very important problem of ours; before RBI. now, in what way notes could be published , that blind can identify, needs ample attention. 1. numbers can be printed in braille also. 2. if above suggestion looks imprectible to the bank, then RBI ccan issue certain mark or point differently on different notes. and by that way, recognising notes will become easier for visually chalenged like me. now I am also eager to hear, what others have in their minds, on this issue.

sunil said :

vibhu, really a good topic, Agree with mayank, as am working in my family business, I also have to struggle with notes to identify them correctly. Comparing them by size is becomes the last option I know there are many symbols to identify those notes but what about those currency notes that has become old and nobody can identify them easily by touching. and you guys were talking about coins . thanks to Indian government for making them a bit identifiable Although it’s not so easy, but we must raze this issue to Indian government. one thing can be done to make indian currency easy identifiable, these currency specially notes should be made by any plastic or similar material so that symbols can stay forever on the notes

Babel Fish said :

Do the notes have different size in India? Avinash spoke of measuring, that's why I thought so. We have a sort of card on which the different sizes of the notes are shown with the value of the notes. You put the note on this card and see the size (and so the value of it) very fast. If the indian notes had different sizes you might produce such cards too. As for the coins, Liesbeth described them very good already. At least in Europe Vi people don't have difficulties to recognize coins and notes.

Vibhu Sharma said :

There are many points to be thought upon and considered. Before I jot down, what I feel by reading these views on this discussion, I really want the others to come up and put forth their views. Needless to say, currency or money, is such an object, which is handeled by everyone. Therefore, if such a problem of recognizing currency exists in a country, it is faced by all VIs. Therefore, everyone can bring upon the difficulties faced by them in this regard, along with their suggestions (if any). Especially, I wanted Mr. Deon or Alden to come up and discuss over the same, as they are the residents of Africa, and Africa, is many times considered a country, which lags behind in opportunities and facilities for its Vi disabled.

Alden said :

Hey Vibhu: excellent discussion: we all say money, money money! Well in SA people have very faint braille on the notes, however, it is of little help as mone is also often handled roughly. Naturally the braille dots are flattened. The saving grace is that our notes, that is R200, R100 R50 R20 R10 are all different lengths. We have a device called a money stick with different groves to which different notes correspond in accordance with their length. How does it work? We place the note at the back against a margin. The note then fits in length up to one of the groves. That is at least a beginning for us to recognize money. The coins are easy, varying in size, and are partially rough and partly smooth. So R5 would be the biggest coin, 2 smaller one rand even smaller and 50 20 10 sents, etc even smaller. So we have made some start.

venkadesh said :

Thanks for this post Vibhu, I am also having problem in identifying the money. If there is brightness then only I can identify the notes, other vice its really difficult for me to identify. Why cant we raise this issue to the our VI people who is working in RBI.

Vibhu Sharma said :

Does no one on the planet have to say anything about it anymore? As I said earlier, I will write down, the views I feel should be considered and the points to be thought upon, once I have the maximum response from all the planeteers of IP, is this what, I should consider a maximum response? Should we begin with what has been already posted by Mr. Gopala Krishnan? Don't mind me friends, but every time, we are ending our discussions without drawing a relevant conclusion to what we have discussed. Sorry, if its hearting to anyone of you. Thanks

Vibhu Sharma said :

After much delibration and wait for the Planeteers to comment on this further, in which I couldn’t succeed, I am now writing down the points, that I feel, are to be considered and thought upon. My comments are in the same chronological order upon what you all have commented. Some of us agreed to a view that comparing the notes with one another helps us identifying the value of the note. It is a good effort to find your way out of it, but can it be implemented everytime. I mean, everytime, it is not possible, for us to have notes of different values with us, including the facilitation of us knowing its values. For example, if we have notes of say Rs. 10, Rs 50, an Rs 100, surely we can identify by comparing their sizes. But is it so, that everytime, we have notes of different vlues with us to help us know their value. Faiding of the symbols is one of the major problems faced by everyone. Some of us can surely read large digits printed on our currency, but we cant ignore the needs of a total blind. Truly, bringing a change in the design of the currency is not something easy to change, but that doesn’t mean, that VI should be continued to be ignored. In my view, whether easy or difficult, our currencies have to be made in a way such that, they are easily recognizable by VI person. Surely, I agree, that the circulation of the old currency is a problem, but I remember, that few years ago, the currency used in Germany was a Douish Mark. With the envention of Euro, now, the Douish Mark is no longer in circulation in Germany. In fact, it is vanished from the market. If they both stood equal values, and abloshing the Douish Mark for Euro could be done in the German market, cant our governments introduce the currency, in a way, such that, it is recognizable to us, and put in efforts to remove the older currency. Even if the older currency remain in circulation, and new currency produced is recognizable, somehow, there would be more amount of the new currency in circulation as compared to the older currency. Maybe, the circulation of both the currencies, with respect to a recognization by the VI remain a problem but obviously, with pasing of time, it would no longer persist. If not the present, at least the future generation will benefit from this. Exactly, what I tried to mention above was that, the VI will always be cheeted unless the currency is recognizable. Comparing the sizes of the currency notes may be a good option, but when we go out to buy things, and the shopkeeper returns us a note of say, 100 rupees, how are we going to make out that it is hundred? We can’t ask the shopkeeper to give us some more notes so that we can compare whether he has given us a 100 rupee note or not. As rightly suggested, the government needs to provide currency notes with numbers printed on them in Braille, but the Braille should be efficiently printed, not such that the Braille number vanishes so badly, that we are hardly able to make out. There are already printed embossed symbols on different notes as described above. But the problem is, we are never able to feel that symbol. The quality of emboss is so bad. Making symbols with plastic or material of a similar kind, sounds practical. Good suggestion.

Liesbeth said :

Hi Vibhu, I like this topic. I have a Victor strean daisy player and I'm absolutely addicted to it. Here in Holland we are lucky to have an excellent braille and audio library, and I can get almost anything i want. I find the great advantage of daisy is that someone has read it out, while with txt you still get the computer voice, which is getting better all the time, but is still mechanical, and more boring to listen to. The absolute advantage of txt is that there is much more available. So many texts have been digitalized. What is the experience of you other planeteers?

sunil said :

well, although i dont read books, but as this is a disscussion, then thought that should share my views. friends, i believe that the text format is better then dazy. because, you can find any kind of text easyly, while getting any text/books in its dazy format, is a bit diffecult. if you wish, then you can also perform some research while reading any document if you are reading it in the text format. suppose, you are reading any study book, and you encountered with any words or information that is not clear but can be clarify by some googling. may be one can also do it if they are using any kind of dazy software on there computer. but, text is text. that is more accessible , and easy to find, easy to read, easy to under stand.

Mayank Sharma said :

tough one. I have been asking myself this question whether I like audio more or e-text. trust me, haven't got an answer. depends on every person. Audio and e-text have their own advantages. but yes, if it comes to studies, or learning something, I have to choose e-text for sure.. but having said that, I agree with Liesbeth mam's view too. not a satisfactory answer? I know. But let’s hear from others. They can give their opinions too.

Deon said :

Well, Audio takes a lot of disk space; so does Daisy. So, uploading and downloading it takes a lot of time, and money, if you have to pay per MB of data downloaded. Text or html, on the other had, takes a lot less space, downloads fast, and I can even use my cell phone, which I always have with me, anyway, to read books in text format. Of course, I can also read audeo this way, but I still prefer text formats. I realise that disk space isn't as much a problem these days as it used to be, but still screen readers are so good these days that it isn't really nessesary any more for people to take the trouble of reading books out on Audio any more. Html makes navigating easy, for students, for example. So, I prefer books and articles to be in text format, or, in some cases, html.

Babel Fish said :

When it comes to literature for entertainment, Daisy might be an option. But Daisy is not a suitable format regarding academic publications at all.

sunil said :

hey lil, and diyant sir, you made my views more clear.

Vibhu Sharma said :

Hi Planeteers. Hearty thanks to all those who take part in this discussion. As per my views over the topic, surely everyone has their own views, as far as regard to accessibility to daizy-audio or text is concerned. While daizy or audio gives one the advantage of playing the book and sit back and enjoy, E-text provides for full access to spellings and meanings. With the advancement in technology, we have daizy readers, which helps to listen the book chapter by chapter, thus making it easy to navigate the book, without listening what you have already heard, as it happened in quite older times, when books were played only in Winamp or other softwares. Today, with regard to increasing technology, navigation between words to check the spellings is also being facilitated with daizy, if the text has been first converted to E-text and than to a format such as daizy, but it is too expensive, and the question is, how many people/organizations actually do it? Text provides various facilities such as copying, and of course, what is being emphasized repeatedly is the facility in E-text to read the sspelling of words and their meanings. In fact, as emphasized by Lil as well, in academics, suppose in fill in the blanks, one can fill in the blank in the text, but daisy or audio doesn’t give such a facility. Similarly, if the academic books asks you to match between column A and column B, definitely, you can, while it’s again imposible in daizy or audio. While as empahsised by Deon sir, of course, the storage of E-text as compared to audio takes less space. Once again, you are again invited to post or suggest newer topics of interest and concern to us all. the record has been done as

Vibhu Sharma said :

Lil, firstly, let me express my heartiest thanks and a great happiness for posting in a query here, and making use of ‘Let’s Talk’. Rightly as you said, that some publishers have agreed to provide their digital material to VI users, with due respect to the agreements being signed, here in India as well, blind organizations are trying to get publishers to do the same. Though I personally haven’t had any experience of that sort as if now, but Saksham in India, is getting publishers and authors to sell their digital material to the organization which they in return sell to VI readers. I will try talking to the Saksham officials about the same, and if I can get any information, will definitely post it here. Meanwhile, let’s wait for the others to rsponce, perhaps we will get an answer. But please, you do post in, the experiences that you as Germans make with these publishing companies to get the book in electronic format, the conditions you accept and fulfill, and the documents that are required. This will help other subscribers to understand and comprehend the lawfull needs of getting books in accessible media such as electronics, in Germany as well.

Vibhu Sharma said :

It is my pleasure to answer and share the information regarding the above query. In India, we are not provided with the digital material directly by the publishers as if now. But I take delight in sharing, and thank those, who are actually doing it, our officials are trying to get the current Indian copyright laws amended, so an to enable NGOs working for the welfare of the VI convert books in accessible media. This as expected, will enable NGOs to convert books, in accessible media, and facilitate VI readers with the same. I don’t have any personal information regarding this subject, and this information is given to me by someone. Should the subscribers, have any concern of interest to us all, they may please post. ‘Let’s Talk’, here please let’s share our good and bad experience, with regard to all that concern us, all, and perhaps at least find solutions to something of those things.

Babel Fish said :

Every representative of an institution working in the field of accessible books for the blind in Germany would assure you that by having the legal possibility to convert books into daisy format the right of information of the blind would finally be ensured. You can imagine that converting a book into daisy format is expensive here as well and the decition which book is going to be converted therefore depends on the amount of interested readers. You’ll find converted books mainly in the field of entertainment; because the majority of blind readers won’t pay attention to a book focusing on the cultural and historical importance of milk(1) but probably to the romance entitled “Joe and Sarah in the garden of roses”(2). In short, besides of the fact that the daisy format when it comes to academic books is not acceptable to work with (see footnotes, spelling of author’s names and titles or lack of possibility to comment on pages - to name a few) there are no converted academic books in the libraries for the blind at all. Still every institution would assure you that the right of information of the blind would be ensured: A blind person working in the public sector has a right to receive an assistant; if he had ambitions to read books about the cultural and historical importance of milk he could charge his assistant with scanning the material for him. A blind person working in the private sector at last has the possibility to apply for financial aid provided he can convince the local authority that he needs it(3). The blind person working in the private sector who cannot provide the requirements has to pay the costs on his own and the costs are immense! Now, there are some publishing companies in Germany and the UK I know about who (with the author’s approval) do sell electronic books to blind students or researchers provided the so-called “private autonomie”(4) is still given. They want you to send them your ID card(5) (proving your disability) and sign up an agreement. There you are assuring that you will not give the book to others(6), make copies and install it on a second computer(7). Well, given the fact that some people are not eager to spend their valuable life time by making efforts to convince the local authorities or by sitting at the desk just for turning thousands of pages to scan a book (of which they know is available somewhere on a computer of the publishing company); isn’t that sort of deal with the publisher not a tempting one? Notes: 1 one can imagine further titles not attracting the majority of readers 2 I’m not saying we wouldn’t need that sort of books at all 3 An humiliating undertaking to some extend 4 remember, it’s the private sector we are dealing with and they may or may not make a deal with whomever they want. I saw “subject of study”, “academic grade”, “citizenship” as conditions already 5 Data privacy protection? 6 I’m paying the same price for a book as everybody else; and everybody else is allowed to lend the book to someone 7 I’m paying the same price for a book as everybody else; and everybody else is allowed to read the book where he wants to do it

Alden said :

in SA publishers associations work throughthe library to make copyright and electronic files available for production of m accessible material in alternative formats, but only to libraries. As far as my knowledge, copyright to individuals remains a rarity.

Vibhu Sharma said :

Lil and Alden, firstly I would like to express my heartiest thanks to both of you, for writing in. This topic has since long been left unattended. Lil, thanks for the information you have provided. It indeed provides us with a lot of information with regard to accessibility of books to the VI,, and Alden, as always, thanks for this briefe information about South Africa. I am posting a new topic of discussion here, let’s take ‘Whether Audio-Daizy or Text, which is better?’ Let’s share our views, let’s discuss.

Deon said :

Well, maybe, most governments are not really interested? But, we have the WWW, where we can find a lot of books; Inclusive Planet, for example. Of course, we first have to agree which formats of books are accessable. Many people want it in Audio, others in Daisy, others in pdf, while I personally feell MS Word, txt, or rtf is still the most accessable, as it takes less space, downloads faster and is accesssable to us all, as we all have screen readers. I am amazed at what we have today, compared to a few years ago! We are moving forward, I can promise you; let's not stop here! Let's not demand from any government; let's take the lead. No government will do it for us; we have to do it for ourselves.

yogesh said :

Hai vibhu and deon In most of indian cities have no library for VI'S LIKE IN up only lakhnau have library for vi's. I think we don't want free if they want charges then we are rady to pay. if they provide the books in accessible format. regards

Alden said :

hi vibhu, deon and yajish, just to say I think accessible books remains a tricky matter; one of great but perhaps unnecessary complexity. In SA we are trying to take the Library to the people and extend the magazine and book collections. One of the biggest challenges is the availability of files in electronic format. Something I believe committees such as those of WIPO are trying to find a solution for. Because n one hand, as access is a human right, the authors are also cautious of distributing intellectual property in unscrupulous hands. I have heard of things like finger prints on files, etc. And yes, Deon, I think the format is the major issue. In SA we have had some liberation through the body called "pasa, "publishingssociation of South Africa" But as you say much more needs to be done. Sometimes I am tempted to believe, that one needs to find authors and meet face to face over a cup of tea, take them through the libraries for the blind and show them work that is done in terms of accessibility in alternative formats.

Vibhu Sharma said :

Hi Deon, yogesh and Alden. I agree to all three of you. The problem of a particular format, as already addressed, provisions of public libraries for the VIs, and the copyright issues with the authors and publishers. But if we take it point by point, then I can at least say, that ‘www’ is not always useful. I agree that ‘.rtf’, ‘.txt’ and Ms. Word, ‘.doc’ is the most accessible. A very good point has been given by Deon, that it is us who will have to do it ourselves. No government will do it for us, but at the same time, it is essential that we have some kind of support. Take for example, before uploading a book on IP, we search for its soft copy. Once, the soft copy is found, we upload it on IP so that it is easily provided to the rest of the VI readers in need of the same. Won’t it be better, if as the hardcopies available to a sighted reader, soft coppies are available to us? We all acknowledge, that it becomes hard for us to find books in accessible formats. Be it be novels, stories or even text books, the E-text is made available to a reader after much difficulty. Is running to the blind institutions for scanning or finding the sighted readers for the proper editing of the book, not the part of the problem? Over it, some books are not scanner compatible! Alden, I am much delighted to hear about the efforts made in South Africa regarding the accessibility of books for the blind and agree with most of your points. As you said, authors are conscious of distributing the intlectual property in unscrupulous hands, and then in a computer format such as Ms. Word etc, sharing of the books become very easy. This as we already understand ends up not benefiting the author any how. But should this be the reason, because of which VI readers should continue to suffer? Shouldn’t there be a middle way out of this, so that the VIs get to read, and the authors continue to get what they deserve for their dedicated work? This brings me to another point. Yogesh said, that we are ready to pay to the libraries, if they are ready to provide books to us in accessible formats. So are we, we are indeed ready. But are we to think only of us? At the same time, we need to think of those VIs readers who do not have enough money to buy or pay for the books. Again, I would say, there had to be a middle way out. Let’s hear from the others. Let’s draw a conclusion to this discussion.

Alden said :

hi vibhu, deon and yogesh yes, some fine points here. txt, word most accessible, especially where expensive daisy and braille software are not available to all due to financial constraints. Agreed again, we will need to take the lead in this regard. I think folks miss the point if thy do not make available electronic files, as the VI is but a small cross section of the market and does not yield great profit in terms of books that coul be sold; furtthermore the point is lost that the book can only be read in the accessible formats of word and txt. a possibility was on the cards to "finger print" an electronic file, perhaps we need to target our authorities and decision makers in terms of better policing; similar to the policing of pirate ceds and goods. perhaps then with a file with a digial finger print, a measure can be put in place to ensure that only parties with permission have access to electronic files and that these are not distributed illegally?

Vibhu Sharma said :

Hi dear conversationalists Firstly, let me share with you, that this discussion, ‘Making Books Accessible’ has been chosen as the ‘Discussion of the Week’. Well, most of you would already be aware of the same, but due to inaccessibility, I have been away from IP and have learnt it only today, and therefore, thought of shairing it with you all, so that we can take more delight in what we are discussing, and to comprehend this discussion. Alden, I agree with you, and believe me, that the measure that you have suggested, to have finger prints, or any other necessary measure that can be suggested and taken to have digital material provided to VI, to ensure its safety as well as prevent shairing, which remains one of the major concern of the copyright holders, is very much appropriate. Is there such a measure, taken by those responsible, as far as I can figure out, accessibility of books will become easy, to VIs, and the copyright holders will be given their rightfull dues. In the end of my note, once again, I invite, the planeteers to join in the discussions, and post newer ones, of concern to us all.

Akhilesh Singh said :

yeh vibha! i do agree to you. that the indian government should focus on accessability of visually challenged. all the websights should be in HTML format, so that, we can access those sights.

Vibhu Sharma said :

Thanks Akhilesh, good to see you posting here. The first that you have brought up in the discussion, regarding the websites being in HTML, is very well appriciated. We do face problems while accessing some websites, and in fact, it should in deed be a rule set by the government of India, to make all websites as per the accessibility to the VI. Hope to continuing seeing you posting, and the others are invited to join the discussion.

kuldeep said :

the government may give efforts to make the websites in html format. but the problem is that what can be done with those websites which are registerred from other countries? because indian government can apply its rules in india only.

Akhilesh Singh said :

good question kúldeep! at least, indian government should take some initiative in this regard, if somebody initiates something, it inspires others to do something. what is your take on this.

kuldeep said :

the idea you're talking about is really appritiable. but would it be possible for the government to impliment this rule in private sector? i think private sector will not agree what do you have to say.

Akhilesh Singh said :

you may be right, but each and every company wish to earn mor and mor profit, and, they are not going to lose anything by doing so, so i think they should set an example.

kuldeep said :

don't you think that had there been any profit in it, they would have done it yet?

Vibhu Sharma said :

Akhilesh and Kuldeep, I am happy to see you people interacting in this manner on such a serious topic, which was raised by you Akhilesh, a very well-raised one, making the use of my, rather our, the subscribers, channel. Yes, I agree with both of you Akhilesh and Kuldeep. All the websites should be accessible, and Kuldeep, as you said, that what should the government do of those websites which are already registered? Then, I would say, ‘what has happened has happened’ but is the government taking any steps to insure that the websites which are being designed in the present or will be designed in the future are made accessable to us? If the law makes it a responsibility of the web designers to design a website such that it is accessible to every VI, and for the fulfillment of this rule, I suggest, if the government denies to register those websites which are not accessible to all, will the web designers including the private sectors, as you said, (a good point), not be bound to make the websites in HTML as suggested by Akhilesh? Let’s discuss and reach a conclusion. Thanks for the discussion

Deon said :

Guys, your politicians may be a bit different from mine, but I have come to not expect much from any goverment. They can only make laws, but there's usually nobody to implement those laws. Talk is cheap, money buys the whiskey? The only real motivation will probably come out of financial implications, so the Private Sector should be convinced here, and Money will do the talking... We have excellent Laws, all over the World, but due to a lack of implimentation, no Law is as good in Practice as it looks in Theory.

avinash said :

yes, implementation is the biggest problem in each and every country. in fact,if we look back in history, we find we never lacked great minds on the earth and they tought splendid teaching in order to reform society. but due to slugggishness and indifferent attitude showed by the powerful people have widened inequality. as far as accessibility of sites is concern, we will have to sensitize the government officials and the technocrats. 'awareness is the key' we have a welfare government and if we make them aware of dificulties through proper channel I am hopeful this problem can be overcome. government of India has already started working on some projects along with private companies like Satyam,in order to facilitate greater accessibility to the visually chalenged on government sites.

Alden said :

hi all on this chanel, firstly in summary: it seems to be the same universal problem faced by all; however, I think in Europe there specific standards bodies who govern the design for websites. In some cases contributing to greater access to websites. Again, profit and ignorance remains the biggest culprits. Furthermore, I believe having a convention on the rights of persons with disabilities, countries ratifying it, is one thing. But, having countries enforce and pass legislation to what was ratified is another kettle of fish altogether.

Deon said :

Well, guys, if you can orientate the Indian Government to do something constructive about this, so be it, and, Thanks. Never stop trying, maybe, you could convince the Indian Government to take the lead in the entire World, and that would be good, also to themselves. Let's keep on trying; let's get the governments of the World to compete with each other? I'm sure any government would like to look better than others; this could bring them more votes? Sorry, just dreaming....

Vibhu Sharma said :

Hi Friends, indeed a very serious and meaningful discussion. As far as implementation of rules and regulations, and policies is concerned, then, I am sorry to feel, that it is only in India, that the rules are not properly followed. In developed countries like USA, Europe etc, not only does the government makes the sufficient rules for the VI but in fact insure their implementation as well. In fact not only in the case of Indian VI, but rather for everything elce, that concerns the sighted as well, we as Indians, well know and understand, how rules are implemented or followed in our country. I don’t mean to criticize the Indian government, but the point is very much clear here. As Alden said, ratifying the UN Convention on the ‘Rights of a Person with disability’ is one different thing, but enforcing the rules and policies put down by the convention for the welfare and benefit of the VI is different.

Vibhu Sharma said :

Friends, Akhilesh, Kuldeep, Deon,Avinash, Alden, what happened? No more discussions, regarding the accessibility of websites? Should we take another topic?